Sunday, December 11, 2005
Upsilon: Scary place. It really depends on whether that god interferes with things. If it does, I would not want to live there. Too mush chaos - the deity could do whatever it pleased.
b. God has an omniscient/omnipotent/infinite nature/existence.
If God encompasses all (exists infinitely), and I exist as a part of God, we must conclude one of two possibilities:
- I have an infinite nature and have the same qualities as the aforementioned God. This contradicts the first part of the premise.
- I have a limited nature, so God as defined above cannot exist, except in a limited form. This contradicts the second part of the premise.
As much as I know anything, I know that I cannot currently exist infinitely (or any of the other qualities), due to the definition of a concept we cannot understand, but yet know based on what we don't know.
Based on what I know, I must conclude that because of my limited existence, God too, must have a limited nature, or not yet exist based on our conceptual definitions.
As for me, I'm with quantum insight.
Even if I don't believe in god it's ok because i'm just living in ignorance and the possibility exists I might change.
All athiests live in Upsilon, however they think they are in Omega.
No, I prefer Upsilon because if the deity were real and the deity imbued the universe with its own intent then the inhabitants' ignorace of the deity would be part of that design. Therefore, a free exploration of infinite possibilities would not only be possible but also justified in the eyes of God.
Or in Upsilon when stuff happens that can't be explained then nobody will care cause there isn't any GOD.(Convient easy Explanation)
Uhhh sort of like this universe.
It seems, however, that most folks are more comfortable visualizing an external god that they strive to know, please and appease. This schema is based on the system of hierarchy which is not a natural tendency but needs to be socialized into acceptance. Consider a world view based on Ken Wilber's Holonic Kosmos theory--nested paradigms, each a part of the whole even if not part of each other. The moral of the story is that we are each a part of god and god is a part of each of us. Next Question: What is god?
In Omega, people would try to devise sets of laws based on their sense of Divine reward/punishment, but since there was no actual intelligence behind happiness and suffering beyond natural forces (which are random and often quite "unfair"), the laws would not necessarily be the same, and could be the basis of great social friction. I fear we are in Omega, and Sam Harris's book, End of Faith, is pushing me more and more along this conclusion.
we are to th' Gods:
they kill us for their Sport"
I say Omega, ignorance is bliss and all that. Also, at least, on top of everygthing else, we won't be the victims of the whim of a God.
No people believing in God means people will look for alternatives to explain the seemingly irrational, thereby creating their own "God" : natural elements, money, sportsmen, etc.
Free thinkers may still decide there is a God or choose not to follow one of the "created" ones.
This is much more liberty than the totalitarist universe Omega.
The fact that God exist or not is irrelevant, provided people cannot detect its presence (i.e. God does not act on the people nor on their environment).
Most people will probably choose for Upsilon, albeit not for the same reason as the ones stated above.
What is intelligence?
What if the inner simulation of outer chaos
by selective application of best fit models (sentience)
were a proactive crystallizing innate to a thermodynamic best fit(least energy) universe
and evolutionally inevitable
as an outgrowth of biota, wherever found,
as life-art, creating both god and the end-stage universe in the process?
(they are most likely one).
When the universe became transparent to light via the agglomeration of matter,
a process began that resulted in gravitationally favored domains
forming spiral flux,
which formed spherical megamasses (stars),
which complexified the varieties of matter
via thermodynamic cooking, and pressure-regime crystallization,
exploding the complex varieties out to agglomerate
as bio-potentiated dust, which formed planets,
which agglomerated lithospheres, hydrospheres,
atmospheres and biospheres in turn,
each an inevitable outgrowth of its precursor.
This process is not completed.
Biotic energy recycling and sequestration
slow , impede, complexify,
and in a sense beautify mere inorganic entropy, turning it by 180 degrees.
Once sequestered and ensnared biotically, energy exists in a form
not forseen in mere inorganic regimes, and crystallizes differently,
a biosphere whose run-up
is inevitably driven by planetary run-down and resource depletion.
Ambient resource depletion is the straw that mixes the biotic drink.
Sentient modeling of outer conditions empowers sentient (responsive) biota,
who utilize less sentient biota as food, and logs on the evolutionary fire.
(Knowledge is life).
Super sentient biotic crystallizations arise , inevitably, from the biosphere,
creating an awareness agglomeration, and explode outward around the planet,
feeding on biosphere, transmogrifying the merely sentient into food,
and logs on Darwin's fire for the hyper-aware,
the members of
the newly agglomerating noosphere.
(You and I).
The runup of the noosphere is driven by the inevitable rundown
and resource depletion of the biosphere, in food-seeking frenzy,
as all must be learned, modeled, and interiorized as pure Evolution-drive.
(Nothing is conserved).
At last....bereft of bio-food,
the nootic creature must needs evolve again,
entering matter, becoming universe,
encompassing all as god,
the omega of evolution
while the universe becomes transparent,
the frozen diamond of noos,
the body of all-knowing.
Although we comprise it in part,
and in part aid its future rising,
it will not fully be until the end,
at which place all will be it,
and it will be God.
Knowing this, to pose a silly question of a
universe without a god, will cause the watchful in the audience
to notice your sleight-of-hand skulduggery,
slipping the universe itself out of the universe,
then asking us "Where is it"?
It's right there, up your sleeve, sir!
Faith in a god isn't a bad thing, as long as it means peace, love, and understanding. Choice to believe should be important too.
When it turns into violence and ignorance, that's when I would wish I lived in Upsilon.
I'll say Omega, but maybe I mean a spirit-minded world, but with a religion that doesn't involve killing at all.
And, if this world must have a god, an anonymous god, then it would obviously be the best of all possible gods -- an unobtrusive one.
Many of the previous posts seem to presume that Upsilon is populated with "rational" beings. I would respond by suggesting neither universe is populated by any rational beings. A rational being accepts the logic presented to them. To consider Upsilon, we must accept that God exists there, and the beings residing there are oblivious to it. The question posed does not specify whether the God(s) of Upsilon make themselves evident to the inhabitants of that universe, but I would suggest that is part of the functional definition of a God. To ignore such evidence is not rational act. Therefore neither Omegans nor Upsilonians are rational.
I also reject any argument which suggests that we now live in the Omega universe. If reality and truth is mutable enough to prevent us from knowing the exact location and state of an electron, or whether light is a wave or a particle, then I would suggest that there is room for beings who accept Gods into their lives and those who do not, both with some claim to rationality and truth.
I do not pretend to know the answer. I live my life in a manner that makes me happy, and accept no one else's cosmology with respect to what I term my spirituality.
Some Talmudic arguments support this way of thinking: What does it matter if God exists, be nice to people because it is the right thing to do. If and when I meet God, I can answer only for decisions I made, so I try to make good decisions. Making good decisions with consideration for others, is also just a good rule of thumb for getting along with people. So, what does it matter if God exists?
Happy Solstice, all.
WE HAVE ENOUGH RELIGION TO MAKE US HATE, BUT NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE US
LOVE ONE ANOTHER
"God" (the divine) would exist as infinite, thus be outside of the framework of duality.
Since we are inside the framework of duality, we cannot comprehend "God" and since the question only allws for "either...or..." and not "both...and..." then the question itself does not allow for the infinite and is therefore moot.
The SS Richard Montgomery is a time-bomb waiting for a terrorist to give Britain its first real tsunami and, maybe, worse. This film shows what can happen when a government conceals something very dangerous from its own people.
Fact: The US explosives carrier Richard Montgomery sank in the Thames Estuary in August 1944. It was loaded with 15000 tons of explosive munitions. The Admiralty decided to leave the wreck and its dangerous cargo undisturbed. The wreck lies just a few hundred yards offshore between an oil refinery and the several towns. Southend on Sea is just a couple of miles away on the other side of the Thames estuary. Rumours about the ship and its cargo have circulated in these towns ever since. Denials have been issued by ministers in the House of Commons in response to MPs questions about the presence on board of biological, chemical and gas warheads. Nevertheless, rumours persist that the real reason the wreck was not made safe was because of the existence of ‘dirty weapons’ on board.
(copy and paste into your browser)
that's why the ancients name god "the great mystery," beyond language, name, and proof.
we live in-between omega and upsilon. it's a beautiful place, and i love the light at my window.
As stated in an earlier comment, life is easier with God... now you know why.
There will never be a universe in which God exists but no one believes it, but if there were such a chimera, I would choose that universe.
Why? Without belief in God, people *might* choose to act rationally and eschew destruction of the environment and other insane behavior that religion promotes. At the same time, the one thing God actually provides - a bigger purpose in existence - would still be there even though people wouldn't realize it.
If you imagine a godless world (in the mind of the peoples), nobody whould fight for god. But whould every one die for the ressourse of someone else? Not a easy situation for leaders. Not so much wars.
All people whould like to have a good live. But is live with wars a good live? Who wants to die young without the possibility to find a glory place in heaven ? Without heaven (in peoples mind), not so much peoples whould risk her live.
A very bad situation for war-leaders.
First, while in physical life there is a probability people might pay more attention to the planet, animals, & each other. There would be no religion to promote perhaps most warfare.
Second, upon death, what an unexpected surprise.
But alas, we aren't in Upsilon, are we?